Values-based recruitment in Adult Social Care, part one

Podcast episode transcript (automated)

 

Centre for Care

The Care Matters podcast is brought to you by the ESRC Centre for Care and CIRCLE, the Centre for International Research on Care, Labour and Equalities. In this series, our researchers welcome experts in the field and those giving or receiving care to discuss crucial issues in social care as we collectively attempt to make a positive difference to how care is experienced and provided.

Kate Hamblin

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Care Matters Podcast. In collaboration with IMPACT the ESRC and The Health Foundation-funded Implementation Centre. I'm Kate Hamblin and I lead one of IMPACT's delivery models, the IMPACT Networks. More about those in a moment. This episode focuses on values-based recruitment and adult social care in the context of adult social care.

Values-based recruitment is a relatively new term. It's been used in retail and the health sector for some time and essentially means working with people whose values align with the organisation or employer rather than purely focusing on skills, qualifications or prior experience. At the centre of values-based recruitment is the idea that while skills can be learnt, values cannot be easily taught or essential to providing good care and support.

In late 2020 to early 2023, IMPACT brought together stakeholders from across the UK in networks to explore and share evidence related to values-based recruitment. Our guest for this podcast were part of different networks from across the UK and have insight into different aspects of the care system and views and experiences related to value based recruitment. So I'd like to welcome Anee Pridmore, who is a Personal Assistant employer and CEO of Being the Boss.

Welcome Anne.

I'd also like to welcome Dave Beesley, who is Talent Director at Cohesion Recruitment.

Dave Beesley

Hi, Kate. Good to be with you.

Kate Hamblin

And finally, Jo Parsons, who is Co-production Manager at Drive.

Jo Parsons

Glad to be here

Kate Hamblin

Thank you all for joining me. So I kind of like to start with thinking back prior to when you joined the networks and trying to think what values based recruitment meant to you. Had you had you even heard the term before? Maybe I'll start with Anne.

Anne Pridmore

No, never heard it before. The first time I heard about it was when I did a piece of research. Yeah. I've never heard of to that point.

Kate Hamblin

Do you think that it's what you might do, but you might not have called it that you do as a personal assistant employer, are you looking for skills and qualifications, or are you looking for a person's values more when you in your interviewing?

 

Anne Pridmore

I'm afraid I think as I've been employed myself, that when you go to an interview, you're actually there to sell yourself. That's the point of an interview. And whilst I have a lot of activities I do and interests in my life and it would be easy to ask a question, it's an interview to say something like, I enjoy going to the theatre.

I'm in a choir, etc. and how do you feel about that? And I'm not sure that you would get the absolute truth because the people do that because they want to get the job. And that's my take on it anyway. I think for me it's more important that people come to the job with an open mind and not having worked in a residential setting.

Kate Hamblin

To almost those sort of skills and experience for you aren't conducive to being the kind of PA you'd like.

Anne Pridmore

Not at all. Now, as I usually recruit by, I do a telephone interview first and then I on the phone interview, I have a series of questions. And if somebody says to me, I've worked for the past 20 years in residential home, I'm afraid that's a no no, because I've found that I cannot break down those barriers. It's too much hard work.

Kate Hamblin

So that's a kind of red flag for you. What's a green flag for you in in in those conversations that you're having with people, what would you think? yeah, this person might be right for me.

Anne Pridmore

I like somebody with a go to attitude. The last person that I recruited is now has been with me two years and it is the first time ever that I've let them go away for 20 minutes and then phone them up and tell them that they've got a job. I usually leave it longer than that, but I could just tell that this particular person was the sort of person I want to have on my team because she was up for any adventure. So that could be a value based position, I suppose.

Kate Hamblin

Yeah, absolutely. A sense of adventure isn't a skill or a is. It's a qualification. It's. It's definitely a value. Thank you, Rob. And I'm going to go to Dave now and ask Dave about cohesion and you whether you'd heard of all these base recruitment, what it meant to you at the start of the network.

Dave Beesley

Sure. Thanks, Kate. So, yeah, absolutely. As you mentioned. So at Cohesion, we deliver recruitment and workforce solutions right across the care sector. So in all settings we really well versed with the process of values based recruitment. I guess it's been in our ways of working for many years. It's not an entirely new process, but I think what we what we sort of see is that the use of values based recruitment has certainly been formalised more in the sector, probably across the last sort of 5 to 10 years.

But what I guess we hear is that it's not always practised at a consistent level across the sector and as I'm was saying, really, you know, in care, we want to recruit people who have the right to use the right behaviours, the right attitudes. People have compassion, empathy, they're inclusive, respectful, adaptable, resilient. You know, all these things that we know are really, really important in care settings.

So I guess if, if we're looking for, for the right values, the right motivations for wanting to work in care and support, then we know we're going to be looking for people that will offer the most person centred care and support they'll stay with, with an organisation or with somebody for a longer period of time. And I guess what we do see and it's we know some candidates are turned down by the sector because perhaps that they're too young or they don't have experience.

And I think what values based recruitment does is that it opens up the door and conversations beyond that. So if somebody has the right values with the right support, the right guidance, the right training, the right development, what we can do is foster those values and allow them to be great at what they do. So I think that for me, values based recruitment is all about bringing out the best of someone's values, the best of someone's behaviours, their best qualities, sense of fun and adventure is that And as mentioned, getting that sort of conversation started right from the initial stages of a recruitment process. So right from when you first engaging, when you're engaging with the populace.

Kate Hamblin

Yeah. And I think we're going to come back and talk about that and how because I think that's the least important question, I think for people in the sector is, is the why, why would you use this and how then you would put it into practice. But I'm going to come to Joe and ask about, you know, going into the network, were you using Barclays based equipment? Would you have called it that? What what's your approach in Drive?

Jo Parsons

Very much the same as and David. And actually we never referred to our processes as value based. I hadn't heard that terminology myself and I don't think many drive had the when we started to look at what that actually meant, we realised that's how we we worked, you know, with same as Dave just mentioned, that was very much looking beyond skill sets and looking at, you know, what people's values are that, you know, we can, we can add the training to and add those skills to because, you know, through training you become skilled.

But you know, we're very much about staff matching and looking at working in a person centred way like and you know, and the one particular person that came for that interview and could see that that person was up for an adventure and that's, that's what we look for. We look at the individuals we support and what kind of staff members they would need to live their full and valued life and get get what they want out of their life.

So yeah, you know, we definitely do have that approach, but it's not so formalised. And like Dave was saying, you know, we don't sort of claim to use that approach, but we definitely do. And like you said, you know, it's been very much about looking at values based in person centred rather than, you know, what qualifications you might have or, or again, you know, somebody who's worked in the sector a long time.

It's kind of like still looking at what their values are behind that sort of thing and made a great point there. You know, if if somebody is being in a more institutionalised setting, it's kind of like, you know, those are those barriers are was going to be the kind of thing.

Kate Hamblin

To kind of unlearn isn't there in that. Yes, I guess my my quite next question is around the sort of the how and we've touched on some of this around those sort of the sort of conversations and discussions and interview process. But before you even get there in your your advertising, how how have you found that sort of how do you how would you attract applications from people in terms of how do you sell these roles to people that get the right people to apply?

And then in the application, what is it you're asking for? Is it savings or is it just a sort of statement about that gets to the values? How do you start that start those conversations, really identify who would like to come in first about initial?

Anne Pridmore

At the moment, it's very, very difficult recruiting personal assistants. It's been like over the last two or three years, the people that I associate with. In fact, we're starting some training next month on recruitment to and how to be a good employer. Well, my assets usually start with the nice part of the job and and which we tried all different ways of attracting people.

Some people are doing videos and recruiting like that. So I might say something like, I have a lot of interests and I'm on a lot of committees and I also enjoy the theatre. I'm in a choir. What do you do for a hobby? And we leave the net. I personally leave the nitty gritty of the job to the last the the bits that, you know, you don't want to slack up that that's the main part of the job for me.

And I can't do a thing for myself and I can use my brain, but I don't walk until I've only got the use of one right hand. So I don't start with that because I want to attract somebody to the job, says because of the person I am. And then that comes later.

Kate Hamblin

And I think that's the really interesting thing, is changing that perception of what a PA is. This, you know, if you if you put stop front and centre with the sort of the nitty gritty stuff, then it misses out actually what pays and anyone working out so you should be doing is person centred and how can people live good lives, not just the nitty gritty stuff, the sort of tick tick policy, you know, tasks, strength.

Thank you Anne and Dave. Jo, do you want to come in? It's all about the sort of the adverts and what you ask for people to get that initial conversation.

Dave Beesley

Iíll jump in, if that's OK and Jo it would be interesting to hear whether you do something similar in your organisation. So yeah, absolutely right from the outset. You know, we know that as a sector we've got well over 150,000 vacancies on any, any one day. So the attraction part isn't always the easiest. So we have to really sell the opportunity that really encourage people who perhaps even haven't thought about work in Cardiff Capital to come and speak to us and come and understand whether actually this is a setting and an area of work that's going to allow them to thrive, really.

So in our assets, that's in answer to your question, this, this is where we need to make it really clear. We're not sure looking for experience. We look to increase the values of the organisation, for example, in the outset, and we use wording that really evokes that the values and the behaviours, I guess that that we're recruiting for that for the people that that person will be caring for or supporting and talked about videos.

And if you can use anything like that, especially in today's world where it's a lot going on in the social media space and we're trying to bring more younger people into our sector. If you can bring some of the role to life in in a video form, whether that be a short video on Tik Tok or purely putting in a video and you out for that process, really bringing the life, bringing the round to it to life, we've put them in sort of in the past day in the life of diaries.

What does a typical day in the life of a support worker look like? If you can bring that role to life and demonstrate the values that you're looking for, that that really allows candidates to connect and decide whether they feel the role is going to be suitable for them, but also which is which is equally important. Opt out if it's not going to be right for them, that's equally as important.

And very quickly. And then I'd be interested to hear what you do at your organisation. And there is a lot of regulation in recruiting in care. And so that should be, you know, we have to recruit the right people and we have to collect information such as for what history and references. But we've looked at where we can collect that in the recruitment process and actually we don't need to ask everything upfront.

We can get the information on the places where we need it so we don't make it mandatory for people to submit a CV. Many candidates apply on their mobile phones these days, and I don't know about you, but if you've tried uploading a CV onto your mobile phone and into an application, it can be really tricky. So we don't make it mandatory.

What we actually do, and I'm talking about telephone interviews, we do exactly that. What we actually call them is career conversations. So we've tried to take the fear out of an interview away from the process. So in a career conversation with candidates, we explore those values. We ask values based questions. So what does good care and support look like to you?

Tell me how you're going to demonstrate dignity and respect. And it's just getting to know those people and their values. And that's the sort of the start, the process that we look to, to follow. And if you can lay out these basic recruitment rights throughout your recruitment process, it doesn't stop there. That's where we see the better results.

Kate Hamblin

Yeah, And again, sort of that foregrounding of care is about more than the nitty gritty stuff, isn't it, that it's changing that perception and getting to getting that woven through. You know, it's there in the advert, but it's also there in the into in the initial, the career conversation. I really love that that term is there as well.

That is you know for you know first and foremost is it's you know respect, dignity, good good lives, personalisation it's all there at the heading really. Jo, do you want to come in?

Jo Parsons

Yes, Thank you. I was making a few notes still going along then. You know, I agree with David. It's getting out there, being seen and being seen in a positive way, I think. And you touched on, you know, you start your adverts with, you know, the positive, the fun side of things and then the nitty gritty towards the end.

And we, you know, we still talk to a lot of people that think, you know, working in casual sports and individuals is still all about personal care. And that's the kind of things that we really try and, you know, show people as just absolute tiny percentage of what the role involves. So, you know, I was trying to get videos out there and of things that we're doing all the time, whether that's, you know, when to win support and active support, you know, people that, you know, need the hands on hand experience.

We show a lot of the group activities or the events that we go to. You know, we've we went pride back in August and you know, we have still we marched you know, we were out there doing it and, you know, staff as well as the people we supported had so much fun. And that's what we want to get across to people, you know, is really good fun.

And you're out there having fun together. And we are on Facebook. We share a lot of things on Facebook and I'm not sure the most current and social media platform now, we're often slightly behind the times, but we have talked about the Tik Tok videos, you know, making them short, sharp and fun. But we're very much about sharing stories from the individuals we support as well and, you know, sharing their videos and things like that, making it more personal to them, not about, you know, selling it all the time to talk to people about it and things like that.

But we really trying to hone in and think this is what we so think about. Every time you share a video, we want to make sure it gets across that positive effect a staff member can have on an individual's life. How just how important that is, you know, and how wonderful an experience that can be for somebody. We talk to a lot of people that have come to perhaps care and support later on in their careers.

They've had a totally different career, you know, most of their lives. And very often we hear, I wish I'd gotten to this earlier and, you know, so it's just something for us to bear in mind to know how we reaching people. I know, you know, of the the pay and the salaries, you know, often are what people sort of look at and think, well, I couldn't actually afford to be a support worker, particularly now in my career.

But, you know, hopefully things will get better there. But, you know, that's really great. And a bit like Dave, we try and sort of, you know, make things much more informal in the recruitment approach. We have open days where people are invited to pop in, have a chat, you know, if it's for them rate we do have people on standby with application forms you know and that that invited to fill one out if they want to and there's people that interview if that's what they want but we don't force out people it's not the first thing we mention.

It is all about, you know, people having a chat to the people that we support. We always make sure we've got a nifty yet group of the people we support. They're talking about their lived experiences and, you know, a nice variety of stuff and different parts of that. Try. So yeah, it's getting the message out there and not being too full. And I think, you know, people just want to find out a bit more and if it's for them, then we're ready with the application form.

Kate Hamblin

I think that is one of the challenges that came through in the networks, is that, you know, as they were saying, that there are all these sort of regulatory hoops to jump through, but they don't necessarily need to be in that first conversation. But, you know, keep them further down the road working out which ones are actually essential and doing those rather than putting people off almost at the beginning, you know, when once you got past the, you know, the image problem, a lot of social care to then put them off with lots of you know employment history CV's now you know do straight away bedroom of Russia and reading.

But then I think it was really interesting and I think we will you will touched on this but and just be really I think helpful for a listener just to tell us well why do you what does it add to you, your life, your organisation, to use values first and foremost versus a more traditional approach? What does it give, you know, in terms of better care, better people, better retention? What does it add really? I don't know who wants to go come in.

I think, you know, by being values based from the very start, you've so easily valued that member of staff from that very thing, you know, sort of status with you. You know, retention is so important by showing that we value staff members, you know, as much as the people we support, then they're much more likely to stay because, you know, it can be very hard, you know, working in any job really.

But, you know, the so essential people with the right value set are absolutely vital and essential in this in this line of work. And, you know, we've really got to show that we value them and, you know, they will stay with us and they make such a difference in people's lives. Yeah.

Kate Hamblin

Yeah. So it's getting people with the right values and then valuing them to stay. And do you think it makes a difference in terms of retention? As you see people staying with you for longer now?

Jo Parsons

Definitely. I mean I been there for ten years and I still classed as a baby compared to some of the people that work there, you know, and some people have worked, you know, 20 years. And, you know, I think it shows a real commitment to the people they support and drive. So hopefully we're doing something right there.

Kate Hamblin

Thank you. And did you want to come in and tell me what it adds to you, Rudi, in terms of, well, why do you do it? Why take this approach If you're going to tell another person recruiting a PA, why would you say do this? Don't sales for CV?

Anne Pridmore

I think he's quite different to me because I'm at aren't the only person here. I've no HR Department to call on if things go wrong. Sometimes value based recruitment has worked against me because Iím very career minded and there's quite a lot of time here when you're not having to do anything. So I've had two people leave me because they've got a degree and they've moved on and that that's unfortunately the way things are and there's nothing I can do about that.

I personally don't bother with CVs and this will probably come as quite a shock to you. I don't use references because the thing is that if anybody does anything that's wrong here, it's always going to be my word against this. So I don't really value references. I don't think they hold much hope at all, to be honest with you.

But I think for anybody working on a 1 to 1 basis, the first priority is to be able to get on with that person because they are here on their own. They're not going to meet other members of staff.

Kate Hamblin

Yeah, so it's a very different working context, isn't it? And I guess your point about career progression is a bit more of a challenge because that's on you really is the employer. But you, as you say, you don't have this big organisation to progress through or a HR Function or training arm of your organisation.

Anne Pridmore

And thereís no progress here you stay where you are. I'm afraid the only progression is to leave and do something else that is picked up while you've been here.

Kate Hamblin

Yeah. So in a way that the retention piece, which is something that when we were looking at all the evidence, it was sort of being guided by what was being advocated as a way to retain people in the care sector, but not necessarily, I guess if you're employing.

Anne Pridmore

Have one person that's worked for me for 26 years, they don't do many shifts now because they do another job. So they do a part shift once a month. And the lady that I've got working for me today is in her 11th year and then another one's worked for me seven years. So it can't be too bad. You can't be too behind it.

Kate Hamblin

You've got it right. You know, I did You want to talk about sort of what you've seen in terms of benefits as an organisation?

Dave Beesley

Absolutely. And it sounds like both Jo and I have great retention, which is, which is great, given that as a sector, I mean, we sit at around what, 31% turnover across the sector and if we compare that to other sectors in the UK, an average of 15%, you know, we know that as a sector we really struggle with retention.

And actually as and Jo is both sides following this approach will not only help you recruitment, but it will help your retention. And so it's the very reason, you know, it brings the very heart of what the care assistant or the support worker will be demonstrating in post. And it's bringing that conversation to the recruitment process. So if you're only you only asking those basic questions in the process, you know, checking that someone can meet the needs of the shift patterns or you're only talking about the experience in our opinion, you know, giving candidates the very best opportunity to do the best in your recruitment process and candidates will vote with their feet.

You know, there are lots of vacancies out there. We're not only competing in sector, but we compete with other sectors retail, hospitality. We perhaps borrowed some workers during the pandemic, but unfortunately, a lot of those have now come back. So we've got to do something different. We've got to open up the doors to new to new people and values based recruitment helps that and helps the right people stay with you for longer skills.

The Cavs and great data to back this up as well they also talk around you know better some lower rates of sickness low rates of absence because again you're recruiting the right people that with the right support are going to do a better job. So that that's another really clear benefit. It's following a values based recruitment price process.

And I'm sure Jane was as in a role with co-production and and certainly, you know, if you can involve the people you support in the recruitment process, is that that's even better? What better than matching people with the right values and getting them getting the right? I think that's another way you can really make values based recruitment and value in your recruitment and retention process.

Kate Hamblin

Thank you. Now I'm going to come to the challenges because I think you know, it's always important to have a kind of honest conversation about challenges in doing anything in adult social care, because if you're not, then people will highlight those and say, well, you know, you're being a bit overoptimistic. But also in having a talk about challenges, there are often solutions, right?

You know, you will have encountered challenges along the way and found ways around them. So I don't know if people want to talk about things that they maybe find difficult, difficult, but are about using values based recruitment and maybe ways around that, if there are ways around that. Okay.

Dave Beesley

Yeah. Happy happy to jump in. I think when it comes to challenging, what we see is that and it comes back to my only point around consistency across the sector. So not all care settings can rely purely on values and that that's okay. But you can look for specific skills and experience where needed and also look at getting the right values as well.

And I think what we tend to see is a variance in ability is when it comes to to recruitment, you know, not not all hirers will understand how to best use these base recruitment all see the benefits of following it. You know, we do hear, you know, some high risk say, I just need somebody to hit the ground running and therefore I need somebody with experience and you urge them just to push a little bit beyond that and say, well, actually, you know, if we can look at the right values, can we look at training in developing somebody so that they can do well in those settings?

So I think there's certainly a challenge around consistency, around how to to to follow values based recruitment. But I think it's a little bit like what we were saying earlier in many instances, when you actually start talking about tactics and and recruitment and what you do in that process, you're probably following values based recruiting without even realising it.

I think that's the thing is a sector without well versed. Now we're opening our doors and saying, come in, come and meet us at an open day like Joe mentions. Come and have a chat to us at an event or whatever that might be. And, and let's see if, if this is either a career or something you do alongside the role.

I think I think we've got to be more flexible as a as a sector because we're struggling to recruit the numbers that we need and that's only going to get harder. So so yeah, I think there's some challenges around those areas and.

Anne Pridmore

Why are PA employers never invited to those sorts of events?

Dave Beesley

Really great question. And I think for you especially this is this is something you're recruiting for yourself. It's really important that you can get your voice heard. So I would agree. I don't think as a sector we do enough around talking collectively, you know, between different settings, between different and it's broadly in organisations that that speak out really loudly on behalf of us of getting recruitment and retention right.

But we're perhaps not always good. It's like social care in the NHS. We don't always talk to each other and I think that that is a really, really great point and.

Kate Hamblin

Yeah, because I imagine, you know, any new approach there is risk I guess for someone employing a PR, the risks are high, the stakes are almost higher because you know, this is a person, you employ them, you're responsible, they're in your home and it's kind of you've been, you know, you not but you're not part of these bigger discussions.

 

Anne Pridmore

Being an employee employer, an employer is a job in itself. We don't get any pay for doing it. John It's getting harder because we're not even getting funding to do training anymore.

Kate Hamblin

So those sorts of career progression in the role that's not on the table anymore because of the training.

Anne Pridmore

I mean, I live in market Harborough and anybody knows it, but it's in Leicestershire. It's 55 minutes from London. That's quite posh area. You can get more for work in a jockey market than I can pay a pay and that makes it very hard.

Kate Hamblin

Yeah. So there isn't that recognition Jo did you want to come in on any sort of challenges you've encountered.

Jo Parsons

Saying this is Dave really, you know, and it's about getting across, you know, the positives. And it is hard because, you know, and we've seen about the training. It's it's really, really important because even if you have people, you know, with the right value base that they're not sure how to sort of apply that to this kind of work because perhaps they've never really thought about it before.

You know, a lot of people say a lot of people maybe it's not a lot, but, you know, it felt like it on times that, you know, people would come for an interview and see the role as like, you know, the personal care side of things, still a caring. Whereas, you know, drive. And I'm sure a lot of other organisations are much more about the support and enabling people to do things themselves as much as possible and that kind of thing.

And those are the things you can train because it's a different way of looking at it. It's not necessarily, you know, the values are completely different. It's just perhaps, you know, there's potential and staff members have never thought of it in that way. So I think, you know, not to have that training and, you know, build up those skills must be very difficult.

I mean, we're very lucky. We're a good sized organisation. I think the class is this medium sized charity and I know that we're told that our training is very good and but yeah, I mean it's we all use and value space, but it's getting that across, isn't it. And you know, I think Dave, you hit the nail on the head.

We don't talk to each other enough, you know, I mean, I speak to other providers, but, you know, we do speak to people like, can you employ people yourself? And and it's those lived experiences that we really need to be hearing all the time and sharing with people who potentially want to come into this line of work. You know, we hearing what it's really like and and what what the challenges can be. So when when they come into this line of work, they know what to expect. You know.

Kate Hamblin

I think that shared learnings are important. I think and you shared your like your five top five interview questions to get to values, and they were brilliant and they could be used by any not just people you employ but any organisation. And it is that that cross-sector dialogue that I think is missing because at the same time there are big organisations or even you know, small and medium sized organisations with your functions, with stuff that you know could advise you and things that you know, you find very difficult as just the person with all that administrative burden on your own and no funding to do it.

Anne Pridmore

Unfortunately, I think they are settling a lot of disabled people to fail because they, they get the funding and then there's no help in what to do with it once they've got it.

Kate Hamblin

And I think I'm right in saying that being the boss, that's one of your aims, isn't it, to sort of do that kind of peer support?

Anne Pridmore

Well, I started off as a peer support group and we used to meet once a month with other people who employed PIs and do research in need for it. We did it for about three years and then the funding ran out. So then I started being the boss in order to support others who were trying to do the same thing. But funnily enough, there's not just disabled people that.

Kate Hamblin

And it also just shows how complicated it all is. If you know, people within the systems still can't navigate as well. So I wondered if maybe we could kind of close by thinking about going around and maybe having what would be your number one tip for someone who's thinking about and maybe we don't call it knowledge based recruitment because it seems not to resonate, but using values to recruit or I don't know that there needs to be almost a snappy name for it, but what would be your tip for maybe someone in a similar position to you because you do represent quite I you know, you represent charities, recruiters and people who employ people. What would be your kind of tip really around values based recruitment and how to use it.

Anne Pridmore

Should I go first? And just about half an hour ago, somebody asked me if I and an asset and indeed for them because unless you're a company now you can't actually advertise and in an engaged and I suggested to them they turn that around and start by telling and that's what they like to do in their lives and then in the end that and tell them what support they need with personal care and domestic work, etc.. In order just to attract them to the outset in the first place.

Kate Hamblin

Thank you. That's a great tip. Yeah, start with the positive because that's ultimately what people want. They want the boss to live it the most positive life first and foremost. David, you want to go next?

Dave Beesley

Yeah, absolutely. No problem. I think that's that for me. I'm going to come back to the consistency message and having a look at your end to end recruitment and onboarding processes. You know, it doesn't stop at recruitment I think is a key message here. We talked earlier around getting your assets right what you're asking your telephone interviews or career conversations.

But it goes beyond just that the initial recruitment stages. So treat values based recruitment as holistic see it sort of end to end in your onboarding processes as well. Look at that induction. How do we support people with the right values to succeed? Perhaps if they if that knew to care and haven't worked in other settings before, you could give them, you know, support through buddies and mentors If you were in a setting that allows for that, I fully appreciate.

That's not going to be a everybody's in everybody's sort of remit to offer that that but yeah end to end get those one two ones right get those development conversations right. There's some really good tools out there that can assist. So schools for care offer tools to support with finding people with the right values base and treatment backgrounds.

We've sponsored a PhD around specifically looking at what those values and and there are tools like character which allow you to identify those those those people with the right skills and then support you to help them develop those skills. So you're not alone. It's not always easy to make sure you're being consistent, but it's really important that you look at it from an end to end perspective and what that consistency pays out.

Kate Hamblin

Absolutely. And this is yeah, this is something I yeah, I should have brought up earlier that this came up in the network. So this is the name values based recruitment does make it seem like once you've got them an interview you're done. But actually it's about more than that. It's about how do you as an organisation operate according to these values and make people feel they can work according to the book so that they are valued themselves?

Anne Pridmore

I just wanted to comment on that because I think it's quite interesting. How do we as individual employees get our hands on those kind of tools?

Kate Hamblin

Yeah, it's, it's finding them, you know, knowing that they're out there. I know skills to care have them. They've updated them recently. It's finding them again. But certainly something the impact is doing is pulling together a web page with resources. We've got your top five questions out on that as well as an example of that Really, really.

And why it is to get down to values, you know, really succinctly. But yeah, is with where to look and where to navigate because you know, in the we started the network with an evidence review. We were like pulling it in from, you know, academic research also all across the sector and people's lived experience. And it was now is a challenge to get it all together and to sift it and to work out what was applicable to certain parts of the sector and what's more applicable to others is, is a big challenge.

Anne Pridmore

Yes, thank you. I was going to say the same as that mandate really, you know, and start off with the really positive adverts and, you know, getting people interested in what you do and talking to them and showing people, you know, what the job can be all about, probably being honest as well. But like Dave said, it's, it's or yourself. Kate Actually, it's not just getting people through the door and signing that. It's a continued commitment that we value you. You're important to the organisation as well as the individual, you know, and, and being consistent with that, I think that would be the top tick for Sarah Sweeting. You know, keeping people that are great at what they do and really understand that these are the individuals they support as well as really getting the values of the organisation.

Kate Hamblin

And that's really wonderful and I'm going to draw it to a close there. But thank you so much. And Dave and Joe, this has been a brilliant discussion for more information, there's an impact page to be launched around values based recruitment with various tips and hints that have come out from the networks and the great discussions we have there. But thank you all so much and it's been great.